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KP

PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:39 pm    Author: KP    Post subject: Variations on a theme: twist-led three-way decisions
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All of these decisions are variations on the five-box offer faced by Monique, where there was a three-way decision; playing on, taking a static cash offer, or taking a lower offer with a chance of increasing it through a prop mechanism. (I use the term "prop" in light of the changability of these props between and even within seasonal themes.)

What would you do in each of these scenarios?

Scenario 1
£1
£1,000
£15,000
£20,000
£250,000


Banker's offer:

£20,001

or
Banker's offer:

£15,000 + 1 prop

If the one favourable prop from three is found, the offer is doubled to £30,000

Scenario 2
£500
£750

£1,000
£3,000
£75,000


Banker's offer:

£6,000

or
Banker's offer:

£15,000 + 2 props

If the two unfavourable props from three are found, the offer is reduced to £499

Scenario 3
50p
£50
£250
£750

£50,000

Banker's offer:

£5,050

or
Banker's offer:

£3,050 + 1 prop

If it is the one favourable prop from three, the offer is increased to £10,000

Scenario 4 - note there are four boxes in this scenario. One-to-open rules are in effect, so there is a three-box offer to come.

£5
£50,000
£75,000
£100,000


Banker's offer:

£49,995

or
Banker's offer:

£26,000 + 2 props

If either is the one favourable prop from three, the offer is increased to £62,000

Scenario 5 - note there are three boxes in this scenario, and there is a two-box offer to come.

£1,000
£3,000
£250,000


Banker's offer:

£40,000

or
Banker's offer:

£26,000 + 1 prop

If it is the one favourable prop from two, the offer is doubled to £52,000, and if the £250,000 is still in play at two-box the prop will be revealed and if favourable, a Banker's Gamble will be offered on the £52,000.

_________________
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Creator of the first DoND Live offer to be accepted.
"Why regret what could not be?" (A Heart Full of Love, from Les Misérables)
I introduced utility theory to the forums. Blame me.
In your choices, beware of words leading you astray. Think in a balanced way about potential gains and losses.


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matt26

PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:59 pm    Author: matt26    Post subject: Re: Variations on a theme: twist-led three-way decisions

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Scenario 1: Deal at £15,000 + one prop.

Scenario 2: Deal at £15,000 + two props.

Scenario 3: Deal at £5,050 (just about).

Scenario 4: With only one to open, no deal to both.

Scenario 5: Seeing as how I probably wouldn't take the BG, deal at £40,000.


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unclekevo

PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:11 pm    Author: unclekevo    Post subject: Re: Variations on a theme: twist-led three-way decisions
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Scenario 1: Deal at £20,001
Scenerio 2: Deal at £15,000 + two props
Scenario 3: No deal to both
Scenario 4: No deal to both
Scenario 5: No deal to both

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crazyeddie

PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:21 pm    Author: crazyeddie    Post subject: Re: Variations on a theme: twist-led three-way decisions
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I see what's going on here, you tease! :P

In order of choices I would make, from first to last:

1: No Deal, £20,001, £15,000 + 1 prop.
2: Difficult one. No Deal, £15,000 + 2 props, £6,000.
3: Close call between all three. £3,050 + 1 prop, £5,050, No Deal.
4: £49,995, £26,000 + 2 props, No Deal.
5: £40,000, £26,000 + 1 prop + Banker's Gamble, £26,000 + 1 prop + Deal at £52,000.

Reasons:
1: The board has sufficient value to play on, with any-£250k, £15k-£20k being good 2-boxes, and even low-{£15k|£20k} still offers a chance of recovery. £15k + 1 prop averages £20k, and I consider that as slightly worse than the £20k offer.

2: £15k + 2 props averages £10,166. The average of the four low amounts is £1,312, and the 40% chance of winning more after no dealing would need to bring an offer of at least £23,500 to equal the average of the former.

I would say the intrinsic value of £15k + 2 props is around £8-9k. That's close to deal territory, but that 1/3 chance of dropping to £499 (higher than the 1/5 chance when playing on), makes a No Deal slightly higher value for me, even though you drop 60% of the time compared with 33%. The £75k can be a big threat if pursued, as a No Deal at 2-box rewards even higher on average, and a Deal may also be good if the Banker weakens.

It's a personal thing, and would depend on the day. £6,000 wouldn't have been dealt, even on a bad day.

3: There's not a huge amount of difference between £3,050 + 1 prop and £5,050 in value. Purely because I would be happy with £3k, I would choose the former above the latter for the extra money on average. In a gambling mood, I would No Deal, but the 2-box offer might be tricky to decline.

4: One to open is tempting. Would be silly to risk the money though; Orry had a blue, £50k and £100k, was offered £30k, and we know what happened there. £26,000 + 2 props isn't as good, though, but is better than the risk of negative EV through dealing a less-generous offer.

5: £40,000, no question. Banker's Gamble is next, simply because £52,000 isn't as mathematically generous, though stomaching a ~£50,000 loss would be painful. £52,000, if I suddenly had a moment of insanity, and then came to my senses!


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James1978

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:08 am    Author: James1978    Post subject: Re: Variations on a theme: twist-led three-way decisions

Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:47 pm
Location: Darlington, NE England
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1. No deal
2. No deal
3. Deal the sure £5,050
4. Deal the sure £49,995
5. Deal the £26k + 1 prop, and not take the banker's gamble if I got £52k on £250k/orange.

Those were just my initial instincts and my brain has been to fried ever since this thread came up to consider them scientifically! :)

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"22 identical sealed boxes, and no questions except one.....do a poor deal for an easy few thousand or be brave and win a blue!"


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wokoman88

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:30 pm    Author: wokoman88    Post subject: Re: Variations on a theme: twist-led three-way decisions

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1. No Deal everything
2. Very Hard between £15k and playing on.
3. No Deal everything
4. Deal £26,000.
5. Deal £26,000, and then if it came to pass, deal the bankers gamble.

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KP

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:50 pm    Author: KP    Post subject: Re: Variations on a theme: twist-led three-way decisions
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Right, I'll offer my choices here. Glad to see you didn't all say the same things, I set this up well :)

1. No Deal
2. £15,000 + 2 props
3. £5,050
4. £49,995
5. £26,000 + 1 prop, and take the Banker's Gamble if offered

1. The prop offer has an EV the same (minus a quid) as the fixed offer, so I'm taking the fixed offer if anything. It's a marginal call, but unless I hit the 10% disaster scenario, I'm getting a two-box offer of at least £6k given Banker convention these days, and I'm quite happy to risk 10% disaster chances when the offer's this far from the mean.

2. This was inspired by Damien's fantastically comedic five-box offer. This time, the prop offer has a much higher EV - over £10,000 - so I'm definitely not taking the sure thing. 2/3 chance of £15k and 1/3 chance of holiday money, or 2/5 chance of £20-26k and 3/5 chance of slightly better holiday money? £20k targetists might be more tempted by the latter. I'm not a £20k targetist, and the EV of the latter is at most slightly higher and possibly lower. I'm taking the higher probability of success.

3. The prop EV is only slightly higher so not going for that, and with a 60% disaster scenario I'm taking the sure thing at half the mean here. This board was inspired by Sarah-Jane in September 2006, my symbolic 'last commentary' at Bother's Bar before I went to university, and I would have Dealt £5k on that £50k/blues final five and still would.

4. The prop EV is lower, so it's £49,995 or one box to open. We're not far off the mean here, and precedent from the twist game with a similar situation is that you're only going to be getting less generous offers unless you hit the fiver, so I'm gone while I can, and not letting the psychology of the offer affect me.

5. The prop EV is lower (by £1k) if you don't take the Banker's Gamble, so if you take the prop offer, you have to take the Gamble if offered. The decision is hence between a 2/3 chance of an unknown two-box offer and a 1/3 chance of £2k (No Deal, and I'm not risking a 1/3 chance of £2k), a sure £40,000, or if you take the prop offer with a view to the gamble... let's go through this.

1/3 chance of £250k going. It's now £26k or £52k from here - overall, a 1/6 chance of each.
2/3 chance an orange goes. One prop leaves you with £26k - overall, a 1/3 chance of that. The other sparks the gamble - leaving, in all, a 1/6 chance of £250k and, for calculation's sake, a 1/6 chance of £2k.

Hence your total probabilities are: 1/2 chance of £26k, 1/6 chance of £2k, 1/6 chance of £52k, 1/6 chance of £250k. Does that trump £40k? EV is about £60k, there's a 5/6 chance of winning at least £26k, yes it does. I'm risking a 1/6 chance of £2k, but not a 1/3 chance.

_________________
Champion of RTaB S6, creator of unorthodox DoND rulesets, and founder member of #teambat.
Creator of the first DoND Live offer to be accepted.
"Why regret what could not be?" (A Heart Full of Love, from Les Misérables)
I introduced utility theory to the forums. Blame me.
In your choices, beware of words leading you astray. Think in a balanced way about potential gains and losses.


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James1978

PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:44 pm    Author: James1978    Post subject: Re: Variations on a theme: twist-led three-way decisions

Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:47 pm
Location: Darlington, NE England
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Was number 4 inspired by Cyril's game from last summer?

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"22 identical sealed boxes, and no questions except one.....do a poor deal for an easy few thousand or be brave and win a blue!"


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KP

PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 2:13 pm    Author: KP    Post subject: Re: Variations on a theme: twist-led three-way decisions
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Couldn't place the name but yes. I also recall Terry who crashed in a one-to-open game on a position a bit like that, which sparked the run of red wins while Dan was about!

_________________
Champion of RTaB S6, creator of unorthodox DoND rulesets, and founder member of #teambat.
Creator of the first DoND Live offer to be accepted.
"Why regret what could not be?" (A Heart Full of Love, from Les Misérables)
I introduced utility theory to the forums. Blame me.
In your choices, beware of words leading you astray. Think in a balanced way about potential gains and losses.


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h2005

PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:48 pm    Author: h2005    Post subject: Re: Variations on a theme: twist-led three-way decisions
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Sc.1: £15,000 + 1 prop - If the one favourable prop from three is found, the offer is doubled to £30,000
Sc.2: No deal all
Sc.3: £3,050 + 1 prop - If it is the one favourable prop from three, the offer is increased to £10,000
Sc.4: £49,995
Sc.5: £26,000 + 1 prop - If it is the one favourable prop from two, the offer is doubled to £52,000, and if the £250,000 is still in play at two-box the prop will be revealed and if favourable, a Banker's Gamble will be offered on the £52,000.

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