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norwichdonder

PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:58 pm    Author: norwichdonder    Post subject: Does DOND need to reinvent itself?

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I just noticed a comment from KP on another thread...
KP wrote:
DoND is getting quite a lot right at the moment, but it's been mostly at low stakes, and that's perhaps why the ratings have been collapsing.


So my question is does DOND need to reinvent itself to survive? I know a lot of people say its more than just opening boxes, and it is, but to millions who arent diehard fans that's exactly its paradox. If you asked someone who drops in and out of DOND they'd likely say many contestants are either greedy or just have bad luck. After all, given the random nature of the risk/reward (regardless of superstitions of numbered boxes or individual players) a chimpanzee could play DOND and would probably make better decisions than some of the players :oops:.

I'd like to see DOND continue for years, decades! Perhaps we should brainstorm some ideas they could develop. And, lets avoid the one-off tricks, twists and stunts. Anyone mentioning catapults will be reprimanded by h. :laughing

I'll throw one out for starters. The current daily format is biased towards deals at 8/5/2box. We will never see a deal at 17 or 14box, but why? Other contemporary shows (many also on channel 4) have shown us that formats that don't stick rigidly to a fixed time slot can work very well. I think if we ever did start to consider the possibility of 17/14box deals, then quite rightly some element of time constraints, skill or knowledge needs to be added. I thought the nearest we ever had to these early deals was on the live shows, but peer pressure to no deal was clearly an overriding driver.


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daniel123

PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:16 am    Author: daniel123    Post subject: Re: Does DOND need to reinvent itself?
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Well, we have seen one 14-box deal, so that's one wall which has been breached, and I think going by the commentary, a lot of 14-box offers are now being considered seriously also. It may only be a matter of time before we see our second 14-box deal....or our first first-offer deal, at that.

What to do to bring the show back from its seemingly inevitable watery fate? I can't really say I know that's possible now.
They've explored quite a few themes, to no effect, and added several twists, to no great effect either.
I don't have any real ideas as to how to improve things. Take us back to 45 minutes, maybe, and stop all the pointless pandering about which seems to go on?

But in reality, I'll be the first here to suggest we just let it go. It's a great game but it's had eight years now, almost. It's gone as far as it could and further. It's now well on its way down. It's ready to die now.

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Joel

PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:26 am    Author: Joel    Post subject: Re: Does DOND need to reinvent itself?

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daniel123 wrote:
Take us back to 45 minutes, maybe, and stop all the pointless pandering about which seems to go on?

Now this part I agree with, but I heavily disagree with taking the show off air completely. Countdown has been shown on Channel 4 for almost 31 years now, and although it isn't the same type of show as Deal or No Deal, surely every viewer of Channel 4 can agree that the tension and excitement of Deal or No Deal has never been matched. Also with Deal or No Deal, it isn't just a game; you actually learn about the lives of the contestants, their personalities and friends/family (which, with knowing this knowledge, the Banker will use to 'calculate' the offers - tailored for the player), whereas with Countdown, numbers and letter are chosen and all you learn about the contestants is their name and location.

So, yes, I don't think Deal or No Deal should ever be taken off air unless it is moved to a slightly later time slot and ratings still don't improve - which I think they definitely would. Countdown has always had a low audience when compared to Deal or No Deal, and 8 years is nothing compared to 31.


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Saperogo

PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:28 am    Author: Saperogo    Post subject: Re: Does DOND need to reinvent itself?
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I wrote this up, but I'm not entirely sure it relates so much to the topic at hand. Regardless, I think it might be worth sharing my thoughts.

Honestly (although this is probably a minority opinion), what I love about the UK version is that it has very few gimmicks to it. The US version ran itself into the ground when they tried to make each and every episode a very special episode of sorts. It distracted too much from what I wanted to see in the game, which was a contestant making smart decisions for the game that they have to play.

Also what I love about it is how difficult it is to win a large figure, especially nowadays with the stingy banker. Seeing six-figure wins daily, or even power 5 wins daily, would get too boring too quickly. We need some heartbreak in order for the big wins to feel really good. The US failed to give me this satisfaction when nearly everyone involved with the Million Dollar Mission ended up winning six figures.

But, on the flip side of that, there isn't much money on the UK board. I mean, the game really revolves around the £250,000; the only way to take out the £250k and not see a hefty decrease to the offer is to have sufficient backup, particularly keeping both the £100k and the £75k in play. I'd actually prefer a board where the power 5 were £250k/£200k/£150k/£100k/£50k. Then, taking out the top one isn't so traumatic to the game, nor taking out two or three by the third offer. This increase of stability should also lead to higher offers overall, unless the people playing the game don't realize how much more stable this board would be.

Maybe someday I'll make up a board like that and play out bunches of games to see how it works out. After all, I haven't put much more thought into that than just considering multiples of 50.


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Mark

PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:42 am    Author: Mark    Post subject: Re: Does DOND need to reinvent itself?

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There is something happening this summer to the show... have no idea what it is.


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Archstered

PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:29 am    Author: Archstered    Post subject: Re: Does DOND need to reinvent itself?
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Well, no secret that
Mid August, weekend shows are being cut.

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Mark

PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:09 am    Author: Mark    Post subject: Re: Does DOND need to reinvent itself?

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Is that it? I through it was something else.


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StatsMan

PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:33 am    Author: StatsMan    Post subject: Re: Does DOND need to reinvent itself?

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Interest in the show is bound to change over time and different eras, and in my opinion, it's best when it's allowed to evolve naturally and gimmicks are not frivolously added to "force the action", a fate that befell the US version by all accounts.

Of course, there is a serious ratings issue with Channel 4 Daytime generally at the moment, and it does naturally make us question the longevity of one of its most expensive shows to produce - it costs around £50k a show with rental/ camera/ lighting/ salaries etc. etc. before you even factor in ~15k average winnings. However, Million Pound Drop would probably be similar to that, and that's hardly doing brilliant either...

I don't think it should do anything different, people know what the deal is with the show now, and just like with Countdown, only the die-hard fans tune in regularly. The casual viewer is largely lost as they're more 'out of tune' with the players, the personable aspect that adds a lot of enjoyment to watching the game. A game 'in isolation' would have less appeal to me if I was a casual viewer probably, unless perhaps it was a big-money game where the gameplay drove the action more than the contestant. However, the contestant recaps in the intros have been a welcome addition to try and draw the casual viewer back into the loop.

The show itself realises a lot of the casual viewers have departed, as we now occasionally see the banker crop up on Twitter with hints about 'moments', bluffs or otherwise. Then there was the blatant spoiler to JLS's game, which was worrying as it seemed to momentarily descend down the American route... :?

Who knows what the future will hold - at least another 17 months with lack of summer break probably anyway. I wouldn't be surprised if it was wrapped up after then, depends what state C4 Daytime is in by then really... :shock: :shock:

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Mark

PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:39 am    Author: Mark    Post subject: Re: Does DOND need to reinvent itself?

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StatsMan wrote:
However, Million Pound Drop would probably be similar to that, and that's hardly doing brilliant either...


Probably around the same amount... though however as it is live...then doing live shows cost a lot more than doing pre recorded ones...from what I read somewhere.


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StatsMan

PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:51 am    Author: StatsMan    Post subject: Re: Does DOND need to reinvent itself?

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Mark wrote:
StatsMan wrote:
However, Million Pound Drop would probably be similar to that, and that's hardly doing brilliant either...


Probably around the same amount... though however as it is live...then doing live shows cost a lot more than doing pre recorded ones...from what I read somewhere.


That would make sense, as more equipment and personnel are invariably required. Deal even did Outside Broadcasts from various locations, and plus they'd probably have rented out the studio at the same cost for only 1 show per day during that fortnight (rather than the usual 3/4 per day)

It's difficult to evaluate DOND's future, as to my knowledge, no big-budget gameshow has ever been stripped daily to this large extent before!

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KP

PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:48 pm    Author: KP    Post subject: Re: Does DOND need to reinvent itself?
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StatsMan wrote:
It's difficult to evaluate DOND's future, as to my knowledge, no big-budget gameshow has ever been stripped daily to this large extent before!


Certainly not in the UK; there are many stripped daytime game shows in the US that give away five-figure sums day after day, but they operate under a completely different environment, with shows "syndicated" to local "affiliates" of the various TV networks. There is no remote UK comparison.

I suspect that with the entire Channel 4 daytime schedule having fallen to pieces in the spring, the decision now might well be not so much between DoND and a replacement lower-budget game show as Countdown/DoND/whatever being replaced by an E4-esque lineup. Or something in between:

3pm Come Dine With Me
3:30pm Coach Trip
4pm The Big Bang Theory (R) (x2)
5pm Four Rooms

Ideally, you'd have TBBT leading into Simpsons, but I think that has more Chase/Pointless crossover audience than Four Rooms, which in turn really, really needs to be kept away from BBC One/ITV antiques shows!

This schedule works nicely with the current E4 afternoon US rerun lineup, which is:

3pm Charmed
4pm Rules of Engagement (x2)
5pm How I Met Your Mother (x2)
6pm TBBT (x2)

TBBT does huge rerun business even in the US, all year round (and practically nothing else on television does there anymore), and although TBBT gets heavy rerun exposure on E4, it's arguably underused on the main channel. It might be the best DoND slot replacement available...

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KP

PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:55 pm    Author: KP    Post subject: Re: Does DOND need to reinvent itself?
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Also, I could see the show having a planned ending, with the final 21 episodes bringing back ex-contestants to fill the wings, and a proper (bigger-money?) "series finale", as the US would put it... it's the sort of show that would benefit from having such a planned farewell, the show does enough referencing of its own history that it would fit perfectly.

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daniel123

PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:42 pm    Author: daniel123    Post subject: Re: Does DOND need to reinvent itself?
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Maybe they should go back to the very beginning - the original 22. But not playing in that order - a kind of "what could have happened?" semi-rewrite of history. I'd watch that, it's "up my alley" so to speak.

That said, I'm aware several of the original 22 may even have died since then, it was that long ago. :shock:

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American Coupon Boy

PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:31 pm    Author: American Coupon Boy    Post subject: Re: Does DOND need to reinvent itself?
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This won't be a shock to many, but since I didn't elaborate on this thoroughly yet, THIS VERSION NEEDS A NEW BANKER!!!!!!!!! The current Banker is really making it too hard for the contestants to win mega-money in this financial climate, and I think that's contributing to the falling ratings. For instance, during the "sensible bravery rewarded" run of shows around Easter the show saw ratings figures of over 1 million, but since then they have fallen sharply. Cautious Deals and crashes that were unavoidable thanks to the Banker's forcing offers don't provide mush entertainment, especially for an hour long program. I think they need a Banker that makes U.S. syndicated style offers, overall getting more generous throughout the game but still some derisory ones en route and very generous offers should the big money go. A change to the 5-5-4-2-2-1-1 box picking rounds may also help as well considering many to the Banker's late game offers are so ridiculously derisory because they have 3 boxes still to open should they go on, skewing the odds massively in the Banker's favor.

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stewartw

PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:49 pm    Author: stewartw    Post subject: Re: Does DOND need to reinvent itself?

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I saw a great comment the other day.

'It's like Noel and his cult have been locked in, and carried on in their own deluded, false little universe which no-one cares about anymore.'

I don't think it should re-invent itself. It should die as it is rather than change constantly and desperately. This just becomes transparent after a while as desperate ploy for ratings (see WWTBAM) It was good at one stage and was a success. It always had a much more limited shelf life than other game shows. It's not good anymore after being dragged out many years longer than it should've been IMO.

The cult thing is true. It gets on my nerves. They treat the banker as some evil overlord, who MUST be respected. They and Noel pander to him and it is embarrassing. At the start he was presented as an enemy. But now all it is is 'Thank you oh thank you Mr. Banker, £20 is a fantastic offer for that board so I really appreciate that.' to endless applause from the audience who apparently agree, and are scolded by Edmonds if they groan, as £20 is a life-changing amount of money according to him. Not false in the slightest... And what was all this garbage about throwing people out at one stage? Funny once, maybe, but not after 100 separate occasions. What does that say about who they think is watching? They should do away with all this rubbish, at least.

While I agree about the switch to 45 minutes, I don't think a later slot would help it. It finishes at 5pm now and if it started any later it would just get thrashed by Pointless/Chase etc. It's ratings are falling to Hewer Countdown levels so I think C4 should really be thinking about its future quite seriously - it must be the daytime show which has seen the biggest decline this year- what, 1.5m to 400k? Some weekend shows have done 250k, and you can't blame BBC schedules and Tipping Point for that. If anything, its weekday programme should be pushed back earlier so that it doesn't clash with TP with preferably, Countdown following it rather than preceding it.

It must cost a heck of a lot more than Countdown to produce also so how ~400k is sustainable I've no idea. TBH I think ITV and BBC should look at shows like DOND and give things like The Chase a rest while they still have some impact.

If I had my way, I'd axe the main series and just give it some sporadic Live runs every now and then (akin to MPD), they were genuinely exciting and it proved you didnt necessarily need to 'know' everyone on the wings for it to work. Maybe the reduced commission would allow for a larger jackpot, say £500,000, and allow for a primetime run. I'd splash out on a new presenter too; never been a fan but Noel has become increasingly unbearable as the years have dawdled on. He's a big part of the reason I stopped watching.


Last edited by stewartw on Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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daniel123

PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:08 pm    Author: daniel123    Post subject: Re: Does DOND need to reinvent itself?
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stewartw wrote:
I saw a great comment the other day.

'It's like Noel and his cult have been locked in, and carried on in their own deluded, false little universe which no-one cares about anymore.'

I don't think it should re-invent itself. It should die as it is rather than change constantly and desperately. This just becomes transparent after a while as desperate ploy for ratings (see WWTBAM) It was good at one stage and was a success. It always had a much more limited shelf life than other game shows. It's not good anymore after being dragged out many years longer than it should've been IMO.

The cult thing is true. It gets on my nerves. They treat the banker as some evil overlord, who MUST be respected. They and Noel pander to him and it is embarrassing. At the start he was presented as an enemy. But now all it is is 'Thank you oh thank you Mr. Banker, £20 is a fantastic offer for that board so I really appreciate that.' to endless applause from the audience who apparently agree, and are scolded by Edmonds if they groan. Not false in the slightest... And what was all this garbage about throwing people out at one stage? Funny once, maybe, but not after 100 separate occasions. What does that say about who they think is watching? They should do away with all this rubbish, at least.

While I agree about the switch to 45 minutes, I don't think a later slot would help it. It finishes at 5pm now and if it started any later it would just get thrashed by Pointless/Chase etc. It's ratings are falling to Hewer Countdown levels so I think C4 should really be thinking about its future quite seriously - it must be the daytime show which has seen the biggest decline this year- what, 1.5m to 400k? Some weekend shows have done 250k, and you can't blame BBC schedules and Tipping Point for that.

It must cost a heck of a lot more than Countdown to produce also so how ~400k is sustainable I've no idea. TBH I think ITV and BBC should look at shows like DOND and give things like The Chase a rest while they still have some impact.

If I had my way, I'd axe the main series and just give it some sporadic Live runs every now and then (akin to MPD), they were genuinely exciting and it proved you didnt necessarily need to 'know' everyone on the wings for it to work. Maybe the reduced commission would allow for a larger jackpot, say £500,000, and allow for a primetime run. I'd splash out on a new presenter too; never been a fan but Noel has become increasingly unbearable as the years have dawdled on. He's a big part of the reason I stopped watching.


I could quite easily nominate that for Post of the Decade. In fact, I'll do that now. Fantastic. :)

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Like Tom Hanks and his football on that island in 'Cast Away', it looks like it's just me and the bots here now. But that's alright, we're having a grand old time. Aren't we, Wilson? WILSOOOOON?!

A few of us who were once part of the furniture, once stalwarts of the grand and extravagant, exuberant and thriving forum...have receded back into the walls, still faintly visible, still here as poignant, reminding relics of an era gone by; but most of us have vanished, forever immersed in the mists of time.


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Dr. Hindsight

PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:16 pm    Author: Dr. Hindsight    Post subject: Re: Does DOND need to reinvent itself?

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One thing I've often wondered is what happens if the show gets canned? You can have the contestants each play their game, but then who replaces them? They can't add new contestants, because they won't get a chance to play. Maybe invite past memorable players back to open boxes, provide advice, and be entertaining.

Another thing to change is the board. Get rid of the amounts less than a pound. It is no longer "cool" to go home with those amounts, nor was it ever. Perhaps add some new amounts to the board. Why not increase the top prize to a half-million pounds?

This brings me to another big question. If Deal gets canned, what becomes of this forum? With new shows no longer being produced, it limits the discussions we can have. Basically, the daily recaps are one of the main things that drive this little enterprise. Without them, what else is there left to do around here? Talk about past games? That's silly. Play online games? Sure, but that gets boring after a while. Play forum-based games? Yes, but this too gets boring after a while.

We're going to have to face the music and realize that no television program can last forever. Ratings drop, and viewer interests change over time. Any TV network executive will tell you that. Sure, it's been a great run with lots of memorable moments, but nothing is eternal in the broadcast world.

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norwichdonder

PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:43 pm    Author: norwichdonder    Post subject: Re: Does DOND need to reinvent itself?

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daniel123 wrote:
I could quite easily nominate that for Post of the Decade. In fact, I'll do that now. Fantastic. :)

+1 That is actually very interesting.
I'm wouldn't usually quote wikipedia, but if you want a laugh I challenge you to read the first paragraph of this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_(religious_practice). There is particular emphasis on rituals (e.g bowing before taking the walk of wealth) and ceremony (e.g daily 1p kiss). And those are just the ones viewers see. There's enough material in there for a PhD.

But I do take onboard what stewartw has quoted. The rituals are taken so seriously now and any dissenters are squashed without mercy. That's why we never hear anyone applaud when a player takes a low deal and ends up a mega hypo win. The person applauding would be whisked out of the studio and told never to come back. Yet, there must be many viewers who have a touch of schadenfreude in some of those situations.

Anyway, back OT it looks like many on here would actually rather see DOND finish completely rather than radically change the format (and dare I say presenter).


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norwichdonder

PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:55 pm    Author: norwichdonder    Post subject: Re: Does DOND need to reinvent itself?

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daniel123 wrote:
Well, we have seen one 14-box deal, so that's one wall which has been breached, and I think going by the commentary, a lot of 14-box offers are now being considered seriously also. It may only be a matter of time before we see our second 14-box deal....or our first first-offer deal, at that.

Any idea of who played that game? I'd like to see the commentary or better yet watch it. Maybe its a myth but I'm sure one game was never broadcast because of an early (17box?) deal.

The problem with the current format is that if we did get a deal at 17box how on earth would they edit the show for the 1 hour slot? Post deal gimmicks, undeals, mini boxes? Anyone remember that game that I would call miniboxgate where mini boxes kept appearing. Wasn't it to try and get the woman to undeal?

I think the first time I ever posted on this forum was in response to game were the player was clearly ready to walk away with a modest amount (<£10k I think at the mid part of the game). He then had intense pressure on him to no deal. He then ended up with peanuts. *edit*, it was Haj on July 26/2010


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hogwild94

PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:02 pm    Author: hogwild94    Post subject: Re: Does DOND need to reinvent itself?
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norwichdonder wrote:
daniel123 wrote:
Well, we have seen one 14-box deal, so that's one wall which has been breached, and I think going by the commentary, a lot of 14-box offers are now being considered seriously also. It may only be a matter of time before we see our second 14-box deal....or our first first-offer deal, at that.

Any idea of who played that game? I'd like to see the commentary or better yet watch it. Maybe its a myth but I'm sure one game was never broadcast because of an early (17box?) deal.


That would be Josh's game from last October. :smt023

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